DDA Interview with...
DDA Interview with...
Armando Cabba is an eloquent and sincere artist bridging the gap between worlds that many in the art community don’t know, or want to acknowledge, are intrinsically linked. He has been an outspoken artist against censorship—but not just that, he is a champion of sensuality in art, interested in exploring your innermost desires as an artist and an art viewer. He has challenged the structure of the spaces we inhabit online, and tricked Instagram algorithms with renaissance titles the curtain of carousels. He has persistently endeavored to bring his art to those it speaks to, his painting program JOI of Painting has been chased across the internet from OnlyFans to Patreon and ultimately to Pornhub.
We encourage you to take a look at Armando’s website and Instagram which feature his breadth of artwork and skill
In this interview, DDA’s Editor-At-Large Emma Shapiro speaks with Armando about his journey, why pushing on the walls of restriction matters, and what a safer, better, more artful internet could look like.
So, Armando, how did you start doing the work you do?
It all started back with the infamous nudity ban on Tumblr in 2018. As an artist, I wasn’t exploring erotic themes at all at the time and I had no horses in this race. As a user on that platform, I saw how this rule was harming creators. It was pushing people further away from the internet and severing ties with their audience and community. Sex workers have warned everyone about censorship and how this was going to not only impact everyone, but eventually put all of us in its crosshairs. These were spaces for marginalized groups that felt very free and it was all torn down in an instant. Safe spaces were dismantled and the communities I had privilege of learning from were being destroyed. Taking away digital rights, removing resources, cutting communication, fueling discrimination, and de-platforming puts people in very difficult positions in their lives.
I read the rules and Tumblr used an example of Michelangelo’s David as what can be allowed with a full-frontal image of the sculpture. Classical art was accepted and “females presenting nipples” was banned. A very loaded statement that became online law. So, I got the idea to play them at their own game by painting erotic imagery with Renaissance titles and Christian hashtags included in the captions. If you only react to injustice when your rights are personally affected, that’s how you lose them. Censorship was going to clamp down and I wanted to hit first.
My work began as very reactionary and defiant along with this side of seeing how I can use oppressive systems against themselves.
How much influence have the obstacles you've faced had on your artwork? Have you changed your art visually to adapt to censorship, and/or has it changed your approach to your practice?
There was an element of experimentation that went into my practice when it came to posting my paintings online. Being a white cis male, I hold a lot of privilege and it allowed me to keep going for years on Instagram. When I completed a piece, I’d have several burner accounts to test if it would stay up and if so, for how long? Accounts that weren’t identified as male were being censored more often. If I wrote anything outside of a bible verse that described joy or pleasure were flagged very quickly. Scenes that were not heterosexual and/or included non white cis models were taken down faster and had far less of a chance of re-appealing the decision. It was becoming more and more obvious there was a prejudice and bias within these systems that are meant to “protect the community”.
After 2020, I’d use more Catholic related terms and hashtags as camouflage. I was getting reported a bit more often and it was never obvious if it was a random audit or someone reported my painting directly. The ways I would adapt would be through video and splice in my art with an image of a classical painting to eventually using a carrousel of screens to protect my art if it was on the explore page. The stricter the terms of service became, the more it was taking a mental toll on me. There was a time I got my hands on a PDF copy of a CIA training manual dating to the cold war on how spies would send messages to each other. I didn’t want to sacrifice the integrity of my art or hide behind blurred images and emojis. I understand artists who use these techniques to share their work, but there is a tradeoff. I feel it sends an unconscious message that the bodies depicted are inherently “wrong” or “bad”. As an artist, do you ask yourself this question of how much are you willing to compromise in exchange for your art to be on the platform. When does it start to bother you or are you willing to go further for engagement? Viewing these pieces, I want to see them in their full form and when I see the blurred areas I feel I’m taken away from the experience to think about Mark Zuckerberg which is not what anyone wants.
Social media shifted from being a tool to a burden. My pieces were always being reported at night meaning I was greeted with anxiety in the morning. I slowed down on my erotic series for a while because I was burnt out. I’m fortunate enough to have my own website, so I post my art there and don’t bother entertaining the ever-changing community guidelines. There’s no other way to say it, but it sucks not being able to connect with your audience due to the endlessly changing community guidelines. I didn’t want to quit my erotic series because I knew how important it was to people. The painting continues even if there is no one there to see it on Instagram.
Tabernacle of The Linaioli by Ghiberti / Oil on Wood / 15 x 15 cm / 2021
You do a lot of interviews and are an outspoken anti-censorship and sex positive artist. One of my favorite pieces that I got to write for The Art Newspaper included an interview with you in which you stated, "It's incredibly important artists know who made the platform what it is today, even outside the digital space, artists have more in common with sex workers.” Could you please speak to the crossover between these communities?
Artists and sex workers have been linked throughout history. High chance one of your favorite paintings includes a sex worker being depicted. If you’re an artist today, you have been inspired by the imagery, themes, and lives of sex workers to some capacity whether you’re aware of it or not.
When I was referring to the platform, I was talking about Onlyfans and how artists have used it as a place to avoid censorship. Onlyfans is an empire built off sex workers. The reason that platform is as big as it is not because of shareholders, tech engineers, and investors. It was sex workers. If you’re an artist using Onlyfans, you have to be in solidarity with sex workers and acknowledge you’re a guest in that space. Trying to separate yourself by saying “I’m not like the other people on that website” is basically online gentrification. Trying to separate yourself and putting down the people who made that space even possible for you. When Tumblr fell to censorship, art spaces were not welcoming to sex workers. Ello had the chance to be the next big thing, but they released a statement saying they wouldn’t accept any form of sex work even if it was directed off platform.
Sex workers experience far more discrimination and exploitation than artists both digitally and in the real world. They want rights, not rescue. We need to be listening more when they speak. Personally, I find there’s not much of a difference in structure and mindset if we compare strip clubs and art galleries/art fairs. You’re hustling to get potential clients. I don’t change that much when I’m at a vernissage, but I do amp up my charm and feel I’m putting on a show. Some galleries and organizations require a fee to be paid for you to go work that doesn’t offer much in exchange. There’s the percentage of what you make going to gallery’s pocket. There’s quite a bit that overlaps but artists have it much easier than sex workers.
B.Sleazean posted a video that profoundly said it best that sex work is human connection, caregiving, healing , and interpersonal. It can be therapeutic (but also go see therapist) and it can also just be a simple feeling. I was moved by their words. Later on, I realized how many artists believe in these very necessary and important ideals when it comes to their art? The countless artist statements that sound so familiar and aim for the same goal, yet I still see artists reacting negatively towards sex workers. Continuously creating distance between themselves and anything sex work related. One group is more heavily stigmatized than the other. I’m not trying to argue that we keep one and ditch everything else or make it some sort of contest. I’m trying to make artists realize that if you just listened, you would not only understand, but put an end to distancing yourself because of stigma.
I’m saying all this so you can dismantle the bias you have towards a group of people you should have sympathy and support for. Everything I’ve come to know about censorship, my art, and becoming a better person by having a greater understanding of myself and others has been thanks to sex workers. We all owe it to sex workers.
How many platforms have you been chased around on? What has it been like? Were you able to get any help?
The main platform that gave me problems and kicked me off was Patreon. I have my show where I teach erotic art called The JOI of Painting that I originally began on Onlyfans. The reason I moved to Patreon was because it seemed like a better fit for giving something more to my subscribers. Different tiers for different merch and prints along with budget, so it was more accessible while also trying to make a living off my work. I paid for my account with Vimeo to upload my show, designed my prints, and I signed up to Patreon.
The show was growing and there were no issues for the first handful of months. Everything came crashing down when the second round of prints were over a month late regarding delivery to paying subscribers. It took 3 weeks for the support team to get back to me to explain their partnering company Printful refused to create the prints due to my art violating their terms of service. I hadn’t heard of them nor were they even mentioned when signing up. They labelled my paintings as obscene and refused to print a scene between two women. I had to send different pieces until they said yes. The ironic part is they were boasting about pride month and support queer artists on social media. It was an unnecessarily long back and forth that made me feel unwelcome on the platform.
While this was going on, I received an email from Patreon’s Trust and Safety division saying my show was unacceptable. Roughly 8 months without any issues, and I was being threatened with being de-platformed. At the same time this was going on, there was an email to be part of an online conference regarding censorship hosted by Patreon. They wanted to connect artists who have faced online censorship. The number of creators that wanted join got so large the following email was an invitation for me to be a captain and lead a conference. I wanted to do it and hear other people’s stories. Part of me felt I could share what I learnt and help others. An extra 2 hours of unpaid work a week, code to sign up was “renaissance”, and I’m being pushed off their platform. I argued my hands were always visible, I was fully clothed, my reference image came from google search index and only took up 1/6 of the screen, but they still believed it was pure pornography I was creating and selling. They cornered me with the payment processors Visa/Mastercard that my art show was jeopardizing them and all creators using Patreon.
I was heartbroken and I lost motivation to continue the show. The best plan at the time was to drag the emails on until I had somewhere else to go. My videos were too large for the upload limit on Onlyfans, other platforms weren’t responding to me, and I didn’t have 500 euros to upgrade my Vimeo account nor the time to edit everything so I could stay Patreon. I ended up writing to Pornhub and got a response within 20 minutes to join their platform. The email I sent included the story of the show, screenshots, and basic questions they answered along with attaching the sign up sheet.
Once everything was setup on Pornhub, I emailed Patreon I was leaving, but they said they were kicking me off. It felt like an immature break up of “You’re not breaking up with me, I’m breaking up with you” It felt like I had to be made an example of. That was the end of the story. I never got a refund from the money they took to create the prints they never sent.
What is the importance of artwork like yours? Who is it for, why, and how?
I mentioned this series began as a rebellious action. Being so focused on the good kind of trouble in spite of an oppressive system, I didn’t take into consideration what this series could mean to people. Evolution is the beauty of art. The sex positive community were the first to really be open to what I was creating. Through many conversations with people from different backgrounds, I realized over a year or two that my erotic series was affirming. People felt seen and that’s worth more than its weight in gold. Why settle at being a nuisance towards authority when I could be creating art so people feel like the masterpieces they truly are?
The entire tone of the erotic series leaned more into a celebration of intimacy. The birth of The JOI of Painting added to that with the notion of inviting people in to create along with me or just see how these paintings come to life. What better way to get context for my work than being right next to me as I make it step by step. Love has become the fuel for my art. It’s not about shock value or trying to bait a reaction out of the masses. I approach each scene like I’m seeing the sunset for the first time. Despite these paintings being no larger than 15 x 15 cm, I’m in service to something bigger than myself.
The art becomes more the viewer’s than it does mine. I don’t paint scenes specific to my own preferences. It feels very limiting to leave out all the wonderful forms of beauty that exist in every person. Younger me wanted to be popular and successful in the art world, but as time has gone on I care only about my creations. What’s a bloated auction price going to do for me or being pushed into a box that only appeases collectors and curators? Truth is I might fade into obscurity, but I know my art meant something to me and to the people who I’m lucky to have experience it.
Karen / Oil on Canvas / 73 x 116 cm / 2023
What have you seen change online over the years?
I feel a lot of people would mention the obvious rules and regulations, but the one thing I don’t see spoken about enough is the users. I find in recent times it’s becoming more hostile. Erykah Badu expressed in a recent interview that the audience has become vicious and artists have to come in with armor on. There’s more of a hesitation for creators to share their work, along with trying to make their art “safe” to not get blowback. Of course, there will be critiques, but it feels a lot more aggressive in recent times. We were contending with the platform and now getting hit from the users has become more common.
The context for a part of this problem is the algorithm and how content is pushed to us as opposed to searching for it. Whatever the social media platform, your for you page is trying to mirror you. We’re being fed things we enjoy or are at least popular in some regard. A big example was the bean soup video on Tiktok where people were upset they saw a simple bean soup recipe video leaving comments saying “but I don’t eat beans” or “I never make soup” Sure, it could be simple internet trolling, yet there was a mass amount of these negative remarks being made because people don’t know why it’s in their orbit. If you don’t like beans, why are you watching the video? Creators have referred to this as the “What About Me?” effect.
Rather than accept you’re not the target audience, it turns into this need to interact in some capacity to say this content isn’t for you and refer to your own morals/tastes through anger. This symptom of individualistic culture is spilling on everything. You think you know your audience, but at any moment your work ends up front of a completely different group of people who aren’t big fans of context. If I see car videos on my screen, I don’t have the time nor do I care to start making it about my tastes and accommodation regarding how I relate to the content. What does it bring for me to comment “I don’t own a car” on a video for an audience I’m clearly not a part of? If I really don’t like something, I’ll block the user and continue on with my day.
Wrapping this all together in relation to art, especially erotic art, people feel more hostile. What’s stopping someone from reporting because they can? Seeing a nipple automatically means it’s porn and in comes the moral panic. They can become part of the story and say they got rid of it. It’s different landscape from what it was 5 years ago. Art is not supposed to be created with the sole purpose of people pleasing.
What kinds of platforms are you currently most comfortable on, and where is your audience? Where do you wish was more inclusive?
Pornhub is the one I feel the most comfortable with outside of my own website. The guidelines and information is very clear and we get thorough emails about every change. Nothing is just a surprise and it doesn’t feel like they’re working against you, but wanting to make the platform as safe as they can. In the few instances where I’ve had issues, you can write an email and actually speak to someone. There’s no character limit, you can attach images, and have an actual dialogue that gets resolved in a reasonable amount of time. Before I felt my procrastination originated from uncertainty due to platform governance, but now I’m excited to film and feel bad when I don’t. I work on weekends as a manager of a restaurant, but I’m always editing my clips and filming between shifts.
I don’t want to go back to a paywall website. My art and my show shouldn’t feel like you’re sacrificing something to see it. Things are already expensive enough as it is and I’m happy making my videos available for people. I wish platforms put more effort into inclusivity rather than cut corners for profit. Having someone review and communicate with you as opposed to a trained algorithm taking down your work.
As for my audience, personally I don’t hear from them often. There are periods of isolation which I know has to do with fatigue from seeing the bombardment of ads when people scroll. I remember instances where Instagram would penalize people sharing my work and not my account. That created a separation and fear which is understandable. I don’t want you to lose your account, your friends and community because of me. It’s a shitty feeling created by a shittier situation. Another wish of mine is people not holding back due to platform governance when they want to appreciate a creator.
Since the start of my erotic series, the people that have supported me have always been sex workers. The reason I have a platform is because of sex workers. Pornhub works for me and I’m a guest in that space. Same thing is said when I was on Onlyfans. The people that helped me set it up and also were the first to subscribe were sex workers. The JOI of Painting was only possible thanks to sex workers. I don’t see them as an audience, but as something larger than inspiration and devotion. They’re the heart and soul of my art. I feel a tremendous sense of honor and pride in just being able to say that I felt their support as a community.
What would your ideal online environment look like? Who would be there?
I feel a lot of people would say the same thing regarding platform governance and inclusivity. We’re seeing blips of “freer” environments in the form of private group chats and Discord servers. My reaction to this question falls with its users and idea of community. A question I have is do people still talk to their neighbors? It sounds very trivial and small, but do people still communicate with those in their immediate proximity. You can’t build a community if you’re still operating on individualistic ideas. This environment shouldn’t feel like a popularity contest where we’re going to see social media marketers advertising paid plans for higher engagement. The goal is not to one up each other with good deeds. I want to see people in these spaces that are there to learn and support one another even if they don’t get an applause for it. It won’t be successful if users are only motivated to post if it means having some sort of gain or being revered because of their content. I don’t want it to feel like a competition.
Once again, I’m brought back to memories of Tumblr in regards to some of its structure. It’s not perfect, but one thing I enjoyed was not seeing metrics or following/follower ratios people, but what they post/curate. Depending on what you interacted with, you’d get suggestions that felt more coherent and not just pushed accounts with verified checkmarks. When you did find more people to follow, you felt like there was a network and not an algorithm pushing a platform’s agenda the whole time. Maybe they were better at keeping up the illusion than Meta. Every second motion of scrolling on your screen isn’t met with a plethora of advertisements. How do you make such a platform in today’s society? You’re going to need money and funds to keep it going because capitalism. That means advertisers and shareholders have more say than the user base. If you’re so obsessed with getting the most followers, engagement, likes, etc then I don’t know how you can operate in a community with opposing values. You’re selling something, then I’d love to have a shop section where it’s only from people I follow as opposed to low quality products that end up as landfill from companies I’ve never heard of.
I’d love to open up an app and pick up where I left off. To not feel exhausted by constant ads for things I have 0 interest in. I don’t want to be drained of my energy to not care about real things. There’s a part of me that feels nostalgic for a time where I’d just post and that was it. I don’t care about staggering posts or creating schedules for content. The fact I can get second thoughts about sharing something because it’s not the right hour of the day for people to see it isn’t normal. Late stage social media isn’t fun and feels like doing chores in a house that doesn’t even want us there to begin with.
You have expressed to me that you aren't very hopeful about the current state of social media and efforts to regulate it. I can empathize with that fatigue and distrust, as can much of the DDA community. How does this affect your approach to your practice and your relationships with other artists?
Seeing the new wave machoism roll out at Donald Trump’s inauguration this year made it as crystal clear as it could be. You have Elon Musk, Mark Zuckerberg, and Jeff Bezos all looking like the worst examples mid life crisis divorced men trying to be cool at the cost of everyone else. It’s unapologetically in all our faces now. I don’t discourage or feel organizations and advocates for social media regulation are not genuine in their pursuits for a better future. I’ve said before it feels like playing by the rules against people who refuse to define theirs. They’re insecure so of course they’ll play dirty. There’s a desire for a victory of change that has to be done honorably when we’re up against the worst people you can imagine calling the shots. In recent times, it feels like bringing a petition to a gunfight. I’m not trying to sway people from exploring different lanes of activism. I could very well be the wrong person to ask what it’s going to take for sincere change and I’ve accepted that I might not be alive in the future to see it. That doesn’t stop me from trying to do the right the thing. It does make me exhausted to see people run into the same red tape and instead of exploring new ways to get around it, some people are willing to settle on compromises that cost the wellbeing of others specifically marginalized groups.
My relationship with other artists on this subject has changed. I understand the pain of being silenced, a means of income taken away, and pushed to change your identity to just stay afloat, but their protests don’t feel intersectional. I’m sorry your world is impacted by censorship, but don’t let go of everyone else as a means to save yourself. There’s a silo effect happening where artists, even erotic ones, separate themselves from sex workers when it comes to petitions, direct action, framing events, and the language they use to express their outrage. I can’t tell if artists are more upset about having their work removed or being compared to a sex worker. You think you’re going to be safe if sex workers are pushed off the platform? That’s dangerously close to right wing talking points. LGBTQ+ individuals are openly being called “mentally ill” and threatened even more as each day passes, but you’re willing to overlook it if you can post your art again? A gallery won’t sign you if you call out these types of injustice? I wouldn’t want to work with that gallery if that’s the case.
It always struck me when I’d see an artist get censored compared to a member of the sex positive community. Being flagged turned into a post about being “too hot for the gram” and shifted to selling their books, prints, show opening, etc. Saying their audience is part of an exclusive group if they see the post. Is it because these artists might have contractual obligations we don’t know about? How good is the paycheck? I understand turning the tables on the system, but wouldn’t it be wiser to use your large platform to make a point rather than a sale? The difference from that to seeing someone else being threatened with deletion is polarizing. People get put into incredibly dangerous positions and it takes a toll on them. There’s no marketing strategy, but a demand for help and awareness. It’s hard for me to show the same empathy to artists who get flagged when their posts in protest negate the notion of connection to others in similar circumstances and end in a promo.
If your work is based on the imagery and themes of a specific group of people, then there is no excuse to not be in solidarity with them. You need the sex positive community. You need the educators. You need the LGBTQ+ creators. More importantly, you need to be there for them. How can you not listen to them yet base your art off their experiences, work, and bodies? It doesn’t matter how well of an artist statement you can write, you have to be there for them.
Anything else you would like to say?
I have a question for the art activists out there. If tomorrow your work is able to be posted, no reports, no flagging, all the best systems you can imagine in place to review it, get your engagement, have your prints and merch in every store without issues from payment processors, and galleries and institutions repost without fear or consequence. Do you still fight for everyone else? Does your activism end because you’re no longer in the crosshairs? You can’t be in for one and not for all. Will you use your platform to amplify to voices of the LGBTQ+ community, sex workers, and all marginalized people who are being threatened and pushed out of existence both online and in the real world? Or do you enjoy your privilege in peace? Are we going to make throwback Thursday posts of when we fought the system and pat ourselves on the back? If this hasn’t crossed your mind, I want you to ask yourself where you get your power from. This isn’t me trying to provoke infighting but rather the hopes you can follow through. I’d rather you try to do the right thing and learn as you go than be silent. In my years of being vocal regarding injustice, there have been moments where I’ve not said the right things, missed certain points, and had a limited perspective. I’m still learning and even with this interview, there is still so much to expand upon. Just because you won’t be perfect doesn’t mean you shouldn’t try. It’s not about being a hero. It’s about striving to do the right thing even if the change you want to see won’t happen tomorrow. No one is free until everyone is free.
Thank you Armando for giving your time and insights to DDA, and for your inspiring activism and artwork! Find Armando on his website and his Instagram